Official Luthiers Forum!

Folks I need your advise once again,

Being from Australia, I have absolutely no clue about the difference between the various types of maple.

Which would be considered TONALLY superior in your opinion, European or big leaf or do you have some other preference? I like the look of the fiddle back stuff, in fact it all looks nice quilt and birdseye included, but which one is generally thought to make the superior sounding flat top??

TIA

Cheers Kim

Kim,

I've only built one guitar with maple and I used fiddle-back European. But beforehand I did my customary research and found some very useful stuff on the 13th Fret Forum archives posted by John Greven who has a reputation for getting great things out of maple. These are the "edited highlights" of his description of different types and some of his views on using maple (Eurpean maple is a maple by the way):

"There are wide variations in the curl or flame in maple, everything from extremely bold, even flames all the way across the board, to smaller, broken curls which do not have the bold light/dark contrast. I usually go for the more intense flame. Quilt is actually a wide curl but the board is cut on the slab rather than the quarter, hence the figure being puckery rather than flame. There are several types of quilt, the best of which is the tornado quilt with very strong three dimensional bulges surrounded by a fine line of altered grain making each quilt blister stand out from the background. There is also popcorn quilt with smaller blisters. The tornado quilt looks like little tornados or sausages and is the most desirable and rare. Also a real b***h to bend! Now, the not so simple part. There are a number of different species of maple used in guitars, each having a slightly different tonal range. Most common (because the trees are large and finely figured) is the west coast big leaf maple. Medium hard, medium fine grain, ranging in color from fairly white to orangy browns. Often spalts due to growing conditions. (Spalting can occur in any wood as it is the advanced decay process which produces the colors as the fungus sends mycelia eating their way through the yummy wood.) European maple (German maple) is actually not maple, but a type of sycamore and is light, but stiff. Most often used in arch top guitars, violins, cellos, etc. Very white color, even flame and expensive. Makes excellent acoustic guitars, although I do not like the way it looks...bland. Sugar maple from the upper mid-west is also a good choice when available. It is the hardest of the maples and sounds a bit like a rosewood in an acoustic. Figure tends to be smaller, broken curls but now and then is bold. Heavy, hard, dense and stiff. All birdseye maple is sugar maple, other maples do not show this figure. As to sound, either the German or the big leaf maple are the best tonally, although I have made instruments from all of the above as well as soft red maple. They all sound good. It is in the structure of the top that the sound is created, the back and sides only color the sound.

. . . Yes, maple comes in many flavors. Hard to soft, flamed to quilt; they all sound a bit different based on hardness and stiffness. Basic rule of thumb is to couple a stiff top with soft back and sides or softer top with hard/stiff back and sides. This evens out the difference in tone between hard and soft maples. Quilt is a different beast. Cut off the quarter, quilt is always very soft (less stiff) and tough to get good highs out of. I only use the hardest spruce I can find when I have to do a quilt guitar, otherwise the sound is much too 'woody' and dark for my taste. Curly and flamed are essentially the same woods only a degree of curliness to differentiate them. Curl and flame appear in all species of maple, but are most pornounced in Bigleaf (west coast maple) and sugar (upper mid-west maple), the former displaying bigger, bolder curl than the latter (which is the hardest of the maples). Quilt is almost always a Bigleaf maple and is found all over the northwest. My feeling is that maple was given a bad rap through the big companies turning out thousands of over-built maple guitars. Making a maple guitar sound great takes finesse, something the big companies were never noted for.

. . . Perfect for light stings and finger picking. A typical maple guitar sound for me. I have no problem building any guitar size with maple and having it turn out well. It requires practice...practice...practice! It takes a bunch of maple guitars under ones belt to get the hang of it. Most important is coupling the right top with the back and sides. A stiff top, very lightly braced is a must to bring out the highs to balance the tendency for maple to be muddy. I prefer either hard maple or well quartered flamed maple for my backs to give them the required 'ping' I look for. Sides can be quartered or slab, doesn't make any difference tonally. Don't cut the back too thin, it needs more substance and stiffness than the rosewoods. The idea is to build the guitar lightly, but think light on the top rather than the back. The back will act as a tonal blotter if too thin or of softer wood, rather than a good reflector when left a little thick and stiff. Anyway...the answer is no, there is no ideal maple guitar body size. They can all sound great."

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Wacko! Dave,

Exactly what I was after, thanks so much mate, very much appreciated

Cheers

Kim

Thanks for asking that Kim, I've been wondering too. Expensive stuff down here though.

Wow Dave, you were all over that one!!!

Thanks for the info. I too was pondering the different qualities of maple. I have acquired a few nice planks and I'm planing to re-saw them, eventually...

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

[QUOTE=Alain Desforges] Wow Dave, you were all over that one!!!

[/QUOTE]

Alain,

When I'm making something new or different I find the research and planning almost as exciting and interesting as the actual build itself. The internet is a wonderful thing - but so too is common sense and the ability to analyse adapt and go with your own ideas and intuitions.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave thank you for the info -- that's a great article! I really like the sound of maple guitars and agree they've gotten a really bad rap as a result of all the bad ones made from it.   

I've got a quilted maple archtop on the go and found that it is pretty easy to work with. The sides were much easier to bend than quartered flamed maple.

PaulB -- maple doesn't have to be really expensive even shipped to Australia. Where have you been shopping for it?

For sure! Rich Altieri's maple dread (Fort Erie) sounded awesome.

I guess maple is even more susceptible to over-building...

Dave, I too love preparing for a project. It's all fun!

_________________
I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Yup, thanks Dave for doing the research for me also, good to have such info at once!

[QUOTE=Dave White] All birdseye maple is sugar maple, other maples do not show this figure [/QUOTE]

I have seen alot of birdseye western BL maple, In fact there is a fellow I met up in Port Alberni that claimed to have 1000's of board ft. He and his brother ran a lumber yard and stashed away all the specialty planks that came thier way over the years, appearantly
I agree - Western BL birdseye never seems to make it to market for some reason, {I think most West coast logging operations are strictly commercial, and not specialty lumber harvesting i.e. MacMillan Bloedel, Canfor, and a couple German operations} but it does exist, Ive seen it plenty.
Also, I wanted to know, I keep hearing Eastern "Big Rock" maple - for years - what is this? Just Eastern Sugar maple?
Hi everyone - I know I have been quite absent lately - but I have been pretty busy with non luthier agendas of late, Its good to be back and see everyone is stil here.
Cheers
Charliewood

"European maple (German maple) is actually not maple, but a type of
sycamore"

Not true...

Acer pseudoplatanus is indeed an Acer, or maple...

It's called "sycamore" because the leaf bears a similar appearance to the
true
sycamore leaf...

"(European Maple) makes excellent acoustic guitars, although I do not
like the way it looks...bland."

Well, the figuring that one associates with the Acer pseudoplatanus
growing in the Balkans is some of the most dramatic figuring in maple
there is, with it's wide slanted flaming over a tight grain pattern.
(And it's astronomical pricing. I've seen violin backs go for 4-500.00
each.)

"I have seen alot of birdseye western BL maple... Ive seen it plenty"

That is not true birdseye, but most likely wood infused with burls...

You can call it "birdseye" (and I've seen it called that a lot), but it
does not really resemble true birdseye...

"Also, I wanted to know, I keep hearing Eastern "Big Rock" maple - for
years - what is this? Just Eastern Sugar maple?"

Yep...
Acer saccharum...
The main source of true birdseye maple....spruce39014.6553703704

Charliewood nice to see you back! Hope all is well with you. Here's a link that describes the various species of maple found in Canada and the United States Maple Species

[QUOTE=Anthony Z]
PaulB -- maple doesn't have to be really expensive even shipped to Australia. Where have you been shopping for it? [/QUOTE]

Hi Anthony, I haven't really been actively shopping for it, I saw a nice board that I was interested in at a woodworking show. It was some sort of birdseye maple, maybe 8' long 7" wide and almost an inch thick. They were asking nearly $300 for it. So I stopped shopping for it.

I see a fair bit of Big leaf here in Oregon. I have noted a wide range of variation in density,texture, and stiffness in different lots. I commonly see "Oregon Costal"(this is a dealer lable) Maple that tends to be lighter, softer, and a bit more open textured. I have also noted it tends to be a bit darker(this is not from decay, but suspect it could have something to due with minerals). You should keep in mind Western Maples are a bit of a wild card.

Peace,Rich

Hi Charlie, good to see you back bro, i hope you'll be able to come back more often Man!

"I have also noted it tends to be a bit darker(this is not from decay, but
suspect it could have something to due with minerals)"

It's all about how soon you mill the maple logs and the method of
drying...

Do you want brownish wood that is a little mushy in texture? Then let the
logs sit a bit, mill them into lumber, and air-dry them in a moist climate...

Do you instead want white wood? Mill the log ASAP and vacuum kiln it...

Color and texture in maple are to a large extent determined by man, and not
by nature...